509 - Frank Smith Gets Real about Queer Polyamory

0 (0s):

Hey listeners, it's Deur here and I'm here to celebrate with you the season. Yes, it's the season of sliding scale. It's sliding scale season. I'm here to tell you about two new sliding scale offerings that I have. So first of all, EET Krug And I are now offering sliding scale pricing for our next somatic therapy retreat for polyamorous folks. This year we are going to Greece. We're gonna be in Crete from March 31st to April 3rd, 2025. Over the course of four days, we hold multiple group sessions as well as private individual sessions, diving into somatic therapy practices that can help you to shift long held patterns in your relationships and all in a beautiful setting surrounded by nature.

0 (47s):

And we try really hard to make sure that every detail is taken care of so that you can be fully present. You know, we take care of your airport transfer, we bring in a private chef for meals and snacks. All your accommodation is included. You don't need to worry about cleaning. You know, you can bring multiple partners with you or you can bring zero partners with you. Our last retreat was mostly solo polyamorous folks, and it was a wonderful time. If this is something that you're interested in, go to Multiamory dot com slash retreat to apply. As I said, we're offering sliding scale pricing and If you are concerned about cost, please don't let that stop you from applying. We really wanna make this work accessible and we're happy to explore options that work for your financial situation.

0 (1m 29s):

So again, go to Multiamory dot com slash retreat. But If you are interested in getting support for your non-monogamous relationships, but you'd rather do it from the comfort of your own home, I'm also excited to announce that I am switching to full sliding scale for my online course Building a solid foundation for Non Monogamy. This is a course I created a few years ago that applies Gottman Institute Research to non-monogamous relationships. You can learn more about that at Deur Winston dot com slash course.

2 (2m 3s):

I have a friend who wrote episode 10, Jose Maria Luna. He does video essays in addition to being a writer. And he's most recent. One was called In Defensive Queer Misery, and essentially the thesis was darker, heavier, queer pieces speak to him more because he finds them more life affirming. He finds like the more joyous positive things feel like they're putting on a performance that doesn't quite resonate with him. Mm. And we like definitely have had words about that topic before. And even watching it, he like calls me out in the video as like, liking love Victor. And he is like, bad. Mm. What was really striking to me was then going through the comment section, which you're never supposed to do, but I was seeing how people kind of really resonated with his point of view of like, I feel not alone when I watch pieces with like heavy drama and despair and like what a lot of people were saying was like, I like pieces where like there's despair, but it ends in a good place ultimately.

2 (2m 50s):

Like, so that was something I wasn't appreciating enough, is that like you can have heavy pieces that still have a happy ending or that have the character find some solace and peace.

4 (3m 1s):

Welcome to the Multiamory podcast. I'm Jace.

0 (3m 4s):

I'm Emily and I'm Deur. We

5 (3m 7s):

Believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.

0 (3m 12s):

Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you

3 (3m 33s):

Myself.

4 (3m 37s):

On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we are talking about non-monogamy in queer media with writer, director, actor and producer Frank Arthur Smith. His LGBTQIA plus comedy series OPEN TO IT debuted at Outfest, which is the largest queer film festival in the world, has received over a million views online before it was acquired by out tv, a Canadian cable channel available in over 15 million homes, as well as a US streaming service with over one million subscribers. And the show can be seen worldwide at OPEN TO IT series.com. Frank, welcome to the show. Again, thank it's good to have you back.

2 (4m 17s):

Thank you for having me. It was important to come out as monogamous, so thank you. This is a brave part of my, oh

0 (4m 22s):

Yeah. Is this, is this your, your like press release? I am closed. Yeah. That you putting out like your press conference?

4 (4m 28s):

Yeah. So we had you on the show before when the series had first come out right around that time. That was episode four 13 back in March of last year. And where I wanted to start us off here is in reading the, the longer version of your bio that you sent over that you were recently a staff writer on a children's comedy series called Ocean Explorers, which was on YouTube as well as you've been a writer for Raven's Home on the Disney Channel. What's the deal with writing children's content and then writing a very adult show like OPEN TO IT with swearing and sex and very mature themes,

2 (5m 8s):

The age old for lover for money, you know, but honestly it's interesting. I, I do love writing kids TV actually as well. I just have, I Think both facets to my personality where I couldn't just do one or the other. I need to like, I need to be able to swear and take my shirt off sometimes, you know?

4 (5m 25s):

But what, what's that shift like moving from, you know, a writing room and you know, sessions working on children's content versus this, I mean they're both comedies, so I'd imagine there are some things that are similar, but are there parts that you have to really shift your brain into a different mode to do it? Or is it actually less different than we all think? It might

2 (5m 44s):

Surprise you to know that doing children's comedy has made me a better adult comedy writer for the reason that one of my friends once described it. And this sounds pejorative, but I mean it in an affirming way. Like writing kids' TV is like writing with one hand tied behind your back because you can't do a lot of what we're talking about. You can't have swears, you can't have like adult references and stuff. And So If you're gonna make people laugh, you really need to make it about the characters and their interplay and like just that age old, like they have opposite personalities and they bump heads and it's funny. And so I carry that into my adult comedy where yeah, I have more toys I can play with, but ultimately it is about characters with opposite personalities bouncing off each other. And I Think it's easy to forget that. And I would argue there are some very adult things that don't succeed because they're leaning too hard into like the dick jokes and stuff and forgetting like the humanity that makes it really work.

0 (6m 33s):

Hmm, sure. Yeah. Gosh that reminds me of, of like all of my college years watching everything that Adult Swim had to offer and remembering the few gems and a lot of flops for sure.

4 (6m 44s):

Yeah. Yeah.

5 (6m 45s):

You've been on the show before, but for people out there who haven't listened to that episode, can you just give us an overview of what OPEN TO IT is about?

2 (6m 55s):

No, go listen to old episodes, do the Back Catalog, be fans of Multiamory. Come on. Yeah, so OPEN TO IT. It's indeed an adult comedy series about a couple that's experimenting with an open relationship, but it's a take that's very silly and sexy because I've found the world of polyamory both heterosexual and queer to be very serious and heavy in a lot of media. And I wanted to show a take that was like more life affirming and just like letting people laugh at the silly moments arise because a lot of silly moments arise. A lot of limbs, a lot of fluids.

4 (7m 26s):

Yeah. I do think that's something that is really striking in watching the show compared to a lot of other content out there is that it is a comedy, it is light, but it's like you'll still run into awkward situations. But I feel like people are able to laugh some things off quicker. And what I've been trying to figure out is, is it actually a great example of more real life examples of if you've got a good healthy base for your relationship, you can kinda laugh off a lot of stuff that might be this serious earth shattering problem in a less stable relationship. Or is it repairing a little too fast for the sake of comedy?

4 (8m 6s):

Like how people in comedies insult each other horribly all the time and no one gets too upset about it. Right. Like I've been trying to figure out, 'cause there's a certain amount of realism to it when I watch the the main couple. Yeah. In terms of how quickly they can kind of lighten the mood with a little bit of a joke and kind of get back into caring for each other. And there's something about that that's a little bit inspiring of like, yeah, that is how it goes sometimes And I'd like it to be like that more often. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious how does that compare with your real life experiences and wow. Yeah,

2 (8m 38s):

I Think the show is, I mean, aspirational from our relationship too, but like for anybody. Mm, sure. And it's funny because I Think like as the show's progressed, I really have tried to make it more what you were saying of like still keeping it light but not laughing off things too easily. So when I was on, only the first three episodes were out and now episodes four through seven are out with the rest two debut very soon. And yeah, episode four in a way is a direct response to three because my character does sort of betray his partner by missing something important of his to have a hookup. And they do just kind of laugh it off by the end. 'cause that was all that I'd produced at the time. And then when we were able to do three more episodes and conclude the season, I was like, I heard, I also heard the feedback from people who were like, I feel like he got off really easily.

2 (9m 25s):

And I was like, okay, all right. Heard. And I appreciate when people can give thoughtful feedback And I like to take that in and better my art. So episode four really is centered around like, okay, now he's being held, his feet are being held to the fire a little more for like, no, that really wasn't cool. And you know, we got to have both of like my character's boyfriend gets some funny revenge in, but by the end they have a serious talk about like, I need you to know how that wasn't cool and can't happen again.

0 (9m 50s):

So I mean, how much are you drawing from your personal experiences?

2 (9m 54s):

Not as much anymore. So like the first three episodes are sort of like loosely based off things that happened to Matt and me, but Princeton is really just like a composite of three different people that I encountered. And then from episodes four on, it really has been just inspired by the characters and like what I Think they would do. So like Greg has really moved away from like my own life and thank goodness 'cause my life isn't as interesting as his. I'm like, well, in a good way. Like I wouldn't wanna get into the mess as he does. So it, yeah, there's a pride special out now And I have not punched a bigot in the face before, unfortunately. That's a forthcoming life goal.

0 (10m 30s):

All right. Well it's never, you

2 (10m 32s):

Gotta get on that though

0 (10m 33s):

Ruling. But yeah, it just

2 (10m 35s):

Sort of happened naturally where like I still have things I insert, eh, from time to time like, you know, I, I have been to a naked party and so there are elements of that that are in the show. Like episode 11 is the Naked Party episode and sometimes people do just creep up to you without saying anything. And so that has happened And I was like, I'm putting that in 'cause it's funny. But I wouldn't say like wholesale storylines are borrowed from my life anymore. Mm.

0 (10m 57s):

But even, I mean I Think that at least what I've noticed on the writer side is I Think there's been a big cultural conversation the past couple years in many, many op-eds and long Atlantic pieces about writers starting to get into more and more hot water for even cribbing a little bit of stuff like details from their personal life. Right. And so I guess I'm wondering for you, the stuff that you have written that's inspired by your own personal challenges or situations you've run into, how much of that did you have to like negotiate with people or just kind of like, okay, I'm gonna make this composite and hope that no one recognizes themselves, which is definitely something that I've done. Like what's been your approach to that? Or has there been any, any ripple effects of doing that in your

2 (11m 35s):

Personal life? Yeah, one guy did recognize it was him actually Buffet so awkward.

0 (11m 40s):

That was

2 (11m 40s):

An awkward conversation for sure. Word. I invited it because I invited him to the first screening ever. So perhaps I should have realized he would figure out it was him and he was surprised and was kind of like, hey, in the future you might wanna run it by people. But also he was like, you did anonymize it. Nobody would know. And he did think it was funny and now he announces it to

5 (12m 5s):

People upfront,

2 (12m 5s):

He's like, have you seen Frank's show this episode about me? And I'm like, oh my. So fortunately the person who recognized it, he's all about it. Yeah. Right. And like it's become a running show where I'm like, nobody was asking you this.

4 (12m 18s):

Right, right. Funny. Yeah.

5 (12m 21s):

So the three of us I feel like come a little bit more from the lens of non-monogamy and polyamory in slightly more of a heterosexual content context. Would you say like hookups and threesomes in just having sex outside of a main relationship tends to be a little bit more of the norm in gay culture?

2 (12m 42s):

It's certainly not as taboo as I perceive it to be in the heterosexual world though. That's certainly changing I Think with time where people can be more open about being open. But yeah, I Think it's just for me when people sometimes ask like, why do you think there's a higher incidence of like non-monogamy? To me it's always been because like you know, comes from like non-acceptance early on and like obviously not complete acceptance now even, but because we weren't allowed into certain spheres like the married world, we were like okay well if we're not allowed to exhibit our love in a traditional way who says we have to do anything in a traditional fashion And that can extend to like things like not having children for instance or just you know, having multiple partners that like there aren't any predefined ways of what being queer and in love is and so why not like do it the way that feels right for you.

2 (13m 32s):

Like I've always said, like as long as there's consent and communication between adult partners, then do what feels right. It's when they're not fully agreeing and not fully communicating about it that the issue arises. That being said, I Think because there's this stereotype of like

5 (13m 47s):

Everyone's chill

2 (13m 47s):

About being open, then if you're not that person you can be feel bad because you're like, am I like a square that I want a monogamous partner? Is that like bad? Sure. Like I've had friends ask that out loud And I'm like, of course not Like you're square to me but not to the world. So,

4 (14m 4s):

Well that, that actually brings up something that I wanted to mention is that in in general with this show, And I feel like I've noticed this to be true in a lot of of gay media specifically, that there's kind of this like overconfidence that people put on of that kind of talking about how hot they are or you know, kind of having this like, oh shit, I mean I know you want some of this or like that, that very, there's this like bravado to it. Yeah this, this overconfidence and you know, a lot of the characters have that in this show making jokes about that. But then every now and then we'll have moments where they'll kind of level with each other even like right after a scene of being very confident about themselves hooking up with another couple.

4 (14m 45s):

Yeah. Then talking to each other about some of the baggage they still hang onto about like feeling like they were less attractive when they were younger or you know, baggage they hung onto about being told they were bad for being queer or you know, that God wasn't gonna like that or something. Yeah. And that, I'm just curious about your experience of that kind of outward overconfidence. Is that more of just kind of a, an attitude way of joking or flirting or is that something that, that comes from you as a way of coping with things or is that, what are you going for with that?

2 (15m 18s):

I don't cope and fine Jace God get off my dick.

4 (15m 21s):

So

2 (15m 22s):

Yeah, I, I perceive it to be a lot of the time bravado to be honest. And I Think that's why like, I like the, the characters having these vulnerable moments with their partners and with their friends because there is being, there are so many things you can be in this world where like you experience invalidation along the way and you know, queer is but one of many and I Think you do have to kind of develop some kind of a thicker skin in order to cope with certain frustrations that get in your way. And often that's around appearance. Like because you're like, oh well if I'm beautiful then no one can take me down because I have that. And sometimes like the beauty does come at a cost, like I do share some history with Greg where like I was not like what would be perceived gay in shape for a lot of my life.

2 (16m 5s):

One straight friend even one time told me, you're like straight average so you're gay fat. And I was like, wow, you don't, you don't get to use that label. Damn

4 (16m 12s):

Not cool

2 (16m 13s):

Is rough, rough. And, And I have encountered like even as of this week some truly like beautiful fit people who when you crack the nut a little do not see themselves that way. And it's heartbreaking because you want everyone to know like what a fine fox they are. But you also I Think learn not to judge people by their appearance in that way of like, just because they look a certain way doesn't mean they see themselves that way and feel the way they look.

4 (16m 42s):

Yeah. Yeah. It's, have you seen the show Uncoupled I Think is what it's

2 (16m 47s):

Called? No, I haven't watched it yet. What'd you think?

4 (16m 49s):

Okay. Yeah, I, I only watched I, I can't remember if I finished the first season or not. What I enjoyed about it, so just for backstory is that it's stars Neil Patrick Harris and basically like amongst all of his gay friends, he's like the single one that people are trying to find someone to date. It's just, you know, it's a dating comedy drama kind of thing. What I Think is interesting about it is that I feel like his character really shows up as the, like I'm not confident about how I look and really feels that. And so I just noticed that is in contrast to, I feel like the way that gay characters are usually portrayed in media is generally having a little more like confidence about how fabulous and and great they are.

4 (17m 36s):

And I did think that was an interesting take that that on that show it is kind of more about his a little bit his lack of self-confidence in some ways. Even though I Think most of us would look at Neil Patrick Harris and think that's a a very attractive man.

2 (17m 49s):

Yeah. When he's been deemed the ugly one, you know, it's all over.

0 (17m 53s):

No, I Think like

2 (17m 54s):

It's wish fulfillment is part of it too 'cause you wanna, like I Think Princeton is often people's favorite character because he just runs through the world being like, I am hot shit And I know it and he like gets all these characters, he plays the third on the show. For those of you who are foolish enough not to have watched it OPEN TO IT yet. But then in season two especially his vulnerability shows a lot where you see like despite being like beautiful and being able to get whatever hookup he wants, he is perpetually single and perpetually alone and is trying to figure out like why he's not being taken seriously even when he's laying his heart out there. So, you know, as crazy rich girlfriend would say fit hot guys have problems too.

0 (18m 28s):

Nice. I Think that the true,

4 (18m 30s):

Yeah. Yeah. Before we go on to the next section, we wanna let everyone know that we have an amazing community of subscribers who get access to ad-free early releases of episodes, monthly video processing groups, as well as exclusive locked subscriber only channels in our Discord server where there's amazing discussion and support going on. If you'd like to be part of that and join for a sliding scale, go to Multiamory dot com slash join. In the meantime, take a moment to listen to our sponsors for this episode. They directly support our show and If you find them interesting, use our promo codes or the links in our episode description. Matt directly helps support our show in this episode as well.

STD Hero (19m 13s):

As I'm realizing basically every time that we talk with Frank Smith on this show, we're talking a lot about fun group sex and threesomes and things like that. And he Really brings the party to the show. You know, every time double A you can rely on a party with Frank Smith. Yeah, we're boring. Frank brings the excitement and one of the really important things in that discussion about group sex is of course sexual health and knowing your STD status and being sure you're practicing say for sex and a big part of that's being knowledgeable about what's going on. But that can be difficult to do and that's actually a, a perfect combination of forces that this short segment of our show here is sponsored by STD Hero, which is a trusted source for at-home STD and HPV testing. It's simple, private and reliable, no guesswork, no awkward doctor visits, just real answers that you can trust. Yeah. I don't know about you the last time you were trying to schedule any kind of group sex encounter or a threesome encounter is that it doesn't always work If you're having to rely on like your doctor's schedule and availability. It's like already complicated Having to do six months from now. I can get in front this Exactly multiple people you know to That's a very good point. To come together to have some fun sexy time and then if you also have to tangentially add your doctor's schedule into that, it can be a real pain in the took us as I like to say, which is why being able to have reliable private at-home SCD testing that's on your schedule is great. You can get tests for chlamydia or gonorrhea or a TRICHO SSIS with their common STD kit. It makes it easy to test for these common infections from the comfort of your home or if you're concerned with HPV, their specialized HPV and oral HPV kits screen for the 14 high risk HPV genotypes. This is is so cool. And, and the thing I especially want to point out with this is that they are one of the few companies in the world as far as I know, that actually has HPV tests for men. This is for a long time been this weird thing where it's fairly standard to test for some of these more dangerous strains in women because it can be connected to cervical cancer and things like that. But in men everyone's just like, oh yeah, I don't know. You might have, you probably have it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what kinds, there's a bunch of 'em, you might have it. And so the fact that they actually have a test pen can take is really, really cool. So the fact that you can not only get it in the convenience of your own home, but also actually getting some stuff that your doctor probably wouldn't even know how to get that I, I haven't ever come across that being an option with any doctor I've ever had. All of their tests are processed in their full service CLIA certified lab and their in-house doctor will review your results. So there's no waiting, there's no guessing. Just clear confidential answers within 48 hours after the lab receives your sample. Don't let uncertainty hold you back. Take control of your health with s TD Hero. Order your test today using our special discount code multi ten@tdhero.com. The guessing stops now

BetterHelp (22m 22s):

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. How do you stay cozy during the winter months? For some people wrapping up in a blanket with a mug of hot chocolate or watching a movie with family is the best way to spend the month of December and therapy is a great way to bring yourself some comfort that never goes away even when the season changes. All three of us have definitely benefited from therapy and specifically from our BetterHelp therapists. It has been instrumental in my work this year on myself. I feel like I've gained so much knowledge about myself and who I am as a person, as well as just feeling better overall in my own skin. And that has been wonderful for me and made me feel cozy these holiday months for sure. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp dot com slash multi today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp HE p.com/multi.

Paired (23m 32s):

This episode is sponsored by Paired, as you may know if you've been listening to this show for a whiler. And I have been using Paired now for over a year I Think. And recently I've been really busy working on a presentation and so Deur had been answering various games and questions in here and so I had a queue of like seven of them to get through and so I did them all in one day and then during dinner we sat down and looked through all of our answers and talked about different things from like who is thrill seeking more or if you were a dish or if you were an ingredient in a dish you were making together, what would it Be? No, no, no, no, no, no. It's if your relationship was a dish, what ingredient would you bring? Which I still failed to have good reading comprehension on the question And I thought that Jace would bring something hardy and maybe fried with maybe a spicy sriracha mayo on the side. And then I realized that I probably just described pizza. So I was like, oh, Jace would bring pizza as an ingredient I guess to our relationship dish That that is not wrong. Which Led to a discussion about how weird a dish this is where an ingredient of the dish is pizza fully Made Dish in itself. But we had a great time and we love getting to connect over these games and questions. So The way it works is that you and your partner download the app, you pair your accounts together and then every day paired gives you personalized questions, quizzes, and games to stay connected deep in your conversations and have fun too. And one of my favorite features is the fact that you can't see your partner's answer until you answer yourself. So it means that it tries to create a little bit of a safe space to actually take some risks in being vulnerable and and opening up an honest discussion with your partner. Whether you're just a few dates in or have been together a long time. Find the time to connect with your partner and nourish your relationship with the Paired app. It's easy and fun and it only takes five minutes a day. Head to paired.com/multi to get a seven day free trial and 25% off If you sign up for a subscription, just head to P-A-I-R-E d.com/multi to sign up today.

0 (25m 36s):

Well I wanna, I Think that's a good transition to talking a little bit about like the the triad dynamics that you're exploring with this particular season of the show.

2 (25m 46s):

Yeah. So in figuring out where to take it next like season one ends on a cliffhanger of like are they closed after all or like are they gonna keep being open? And of course in the season two we're, we're not showing to be monogamous. That'd be weird. Although Jane the Virgin, she wasn't a virgin anymore so I guess we could have done that but so yeah, in season two they're trying to figure out the guys like what they want out of being open and why they sought it in the first place and what feels right for them is something that is a little more relationshipy. They don't just kind of want hookups. Which is funny because when I envisioned the show I really thought it was just gonna be like a hookup of the week kind of thing and just rotate people in and out.

2 (26m 27s):

But then Jason who plays Princeton just really worked his way into my heart. I thought he was so funny and so affecting as the character. And then weirdly enough the show changed from being like a will they, won't they of the main couple. 'cause so often people are like, are they gonna break up over polyamory? And I never wanted that but then I was like, oh I Think it's actually a will they, won't they with Princeton the third? Like are they supposed to end up with him or are they on their own journey? So he sort of comes in and out of their lives in the second season while they're trying to find like more permanent partner and by season's end not to spoil too much, but maybe that's answered. Maybe it's not. I guess you'll have to watch and find out. Ooh,

4 (27m 4s):

Oh shit. Yeah, I, And I, I can't spoil it for you 'cause I've not finished watching season two. I've just watched some of it. I know, I know. Terrible. But something I did find was really interesting is that as the shows progressed, we've also dealt a lot more with the other characters and the other relationships like their next door neighbors, the lesbian couple and kind of what their relationship dynamic is as they see their friends open up their relationship and it raises that question of like, should we be doing this? Is this, is this a thing we should do? And kind of them wrestling with those questions as well as at times following, you know, Princeton and being in his conversations with other people that's not centering that those original couples at all.

4 (27m 48s):

I do like that we're getting to sort of explore a lot of different experiences with different characters.

2 (27m 53s):

Thank you. Yeah And I Think it was important for me to like show the women one just because in queer media I Think I was like, I definitely wanna show female sexuality alongside male sexuality but also that yay that like you can see yeah polyamorous people all around you and it can still not necessarily feel right for you and wanting to explore what that would be like. Sure.

5 (28m 13s):

Yeah. Absolutely. Do you think that you can find like early signs of preference or a favoritism happening in something like a triad relationship? 'cause I believe that's something that you explore that one character starts to have feelings or favoritism for one part of the triad over the other. Yeah,

2 (28m 35s):

In my experience it's always been fairly clear right away. I don't think so there's obviously the physical aspect of it, but also you just see how people like click with one another and what their like personalities are. And that's why for Matt and me it became a rule like that when we find a partner we have to all be on the same text thread because I Think when things were going awry there was too much offline. And it's not that anything illicit was happening, it was just that suddenly there was more bonding, more jokes, people were being left out and like not understanding references. And I was seeing how it's easy for that sort of triangle to crumble if one direction is being massaged more than the other.

5 (29m 16s):

Right.

4 (29m 17s):

That's that's interesting to put it that way in terms of kind of staying in on the in jokes or the references or things like that that are made. And I could definitely see how that makes sense where if we were always together in person, even if there is more chemistry between certain people, everyone kind of still experiences Yeah, the jokes and has an opportunity to be in on it. Exactly. But with our digital communication it can be this like, well mine all happens in this vacuum of just text with this one person that you, even if I'm sitting next to you while I'm doing it, you're not observing that conversation, that communication in the same way.

2 (29m 51s):

Yeah. And here I was thinking I was doing everybody a favor by being like, I'm the social organizer, I'm the scheduler. Great. But like inevitably as you're like setting dates, like you'll send a meme or like you'll mention like, hey last night was great and then like there is personal conversation that arises that then the other partner isn't privy to. And so I was just noticing how that made a difference once or twice and was like, all right, let's, let's not do that anymore. 'cause nobody, it wasn't anybody's fault. Nobody was trying to like be like, ha ha, now I have him let me text the best joke ever. But things happen. Yeah.

5 (30m 23s):

So that's kind of a very specific way in which you practice non-monogamy or is that not something that you're doing anymore?

2 (30m 30s):

No, that was something that became a conscious choice for Matt and me is like even if one of us like meets a person first and like sometimes like how it presents for us is like we almost always do things together, but like if someone's out of town or something then like it might be just a one-on-one thing and then as quickly as doesn't feel thirsty to transition it to like a group hang and then like a three-way text thread.

5 (30m 56s):

Nice. Okay.

4 (30m 57s):

As soon as doesn't seem thirsty, that's

2 (30m 60s):

It's like, I want you to meet my

5 (31m 1s):

Man quick, I don't wanna be in trouble.

2 (31m 2s):

It's not like that.

4 (31m 4s):

Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's actually something worth looking at a little bit too in terms of where the show might be going in the future. Is that, you know, from your own experience is like you said mostly you're a couple and then you'll play with other people or maybe have dates separately sometimes, but not usually. So far it seems like that's most of what the couples, what all of the couples on the show have been doing. I'm curious if that's something you've thought about at all in terms of different types of non-monogamy that could show up with the characters.

2 (31m 40s):

Yeah, I Think for like Elsa and Reggie, the lesbians originally I envisioned that like Elsa would be exploring that more than Reggie, but as we went along it felt that didn't quite feel right anymore. So I see what you're saying of like that was a storyline I tended to explore like one partner's kind of doing it and the other one's like, have fun, I'll see you later. And then so actually though now I'm remembering I'm like yes. So we are exploring that in a different couple in season three because I don't think it felt right for Elson Reggie. But with the new character in season two Kat, she has a girlfriend Olive where now they kind of have that dynamic and Kat like is seeing people on her own and Olive is just super chill and like whatever, I don't care.

2 (32m 21s):

Very happy go lucky. And so what ends up happening in season three, which is still being written, but like the intention is for Kat to come back from a date and see Olive really friend bonding with someone and then to sort of flip it on set and she's jealous that Olive is forming friendships while she's out hooking up and it's like, oh now I'm missing out on something.

4 (32m 38s):

Wow, that's awesome. I like that. And also kind of showing that a more queer platonic type relationship can be really significant and can be really serious for people

2 (32m 47s):

And arguably to Kat is more threatening than if she'd walked in on her just banging it out. Like her having a soulful conversation is more setting.

4 (32m 53s):

That's

5 (32m 54s):

Fascinating.

4 (32m 55s):

Right? Yeah. Right. No that's a great thing to explore 'cause I Think that can really surprise people when that comes up in real life. Yeah.

5 (33m 1s):

Yeah. I mean can we touch on that a little bit more like the different flavors of jealousy that maybe come out amongst the characters and especially in episode 11. Yeah. Dealing with this reconciling jealousy despite claiming to be like above it all or above the jealousy or any of those conflicting feelings that may happen. Yeah. So what are other kind of ways that characters get jealous on the show?

2 (33m 24s):

Yeah, so for very light spoilers, only to get you all to watch it, episode 11 is called open to naked parties. And Matt, my fiance who works on the show with me is my co-ho runner. He wrote and directed this episode. So you know, it's great. But what happens there, the guys are kind of going to Princeton's naked pool party to kind of figure out where they stand with him and they run into a past hookup Jasper who's deaf. And so inevitably you know, things happen and then Jasper and Princeton come face to face and it's a whole explosion. And I Think Princeton is surprised in that moment by how sort of jealous he is of Jasper's relationship with them. And we see that earlier in the season too.

2 (34m 5s):

I Think he's continually surprised by how, for someone who I Think he feels so self-assured and independent that I Think he craves partnership very much and he feels it with the two of them. And then to see someone else kind of having the bond that he wants to have and through a language barrier because only Greg signs in the relationship. So like it is a little tougher for them to converse. They figure out their ways, but like I Think that's sort of hard for him to see right in front of him at a pool party that was designed to just have everyone come and worship. Mm.

4 (34m 34s):

Right. Yeah, no that makes sense. Especially if it's supposed to be centered around him. Yeah. Yeah. So I actually, that's one of the things I wanted to ask about was the episode where Jasper is introduced. Yeah. Who's played by Jared Debusk I Think is how you say his last name. And one thing I noticed is that he's also a sign language consultant for shows. So I, I looked a little bit at Jared's IMDB and some of the other projects he's been involved with and I've noticed one of the things that's interesting about some of the projects he's been involved with is how the subtitles are done for when signing is going on. Yeah. Like I watched a a video that he had up there where the subtitles would kind of show up where the hand gestures were and would also show up in the screen in the order they were signed rather than the order we would present the words in spoken English.

4 (35m 25s):

Like sometimes you'll say kind of the end part before the beginning part, you know, just the word order would be different, how sentences are constructed. And so I noticed there was a little bit of that going on in OPEN TO IT as well that the subtitles in that section were not just appearing normally, they were kind of fading in in a different order. Is that the same thing that was going on there? I don't know a SL well enough to know for sure if that was

2 (35m 48s):

Accurate. Yeah, so it's a two part thing there And I really impressed you observed that. So like one was to show like the order in which the words are showing for people who are unfamiliar with sign languages to give them a quick preview of that. But also because Greg is rusty with his sign language at the time, to kind of show how he's receiving it and how it's hard for him to put together the sentence because he's like, it's been a while. Oh right. And he is not connecting it fast yet.

4 (36m 10s):

Okay, got it. I wondered about that. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then he, he like makes mistakes and gets corrected and stuff. I just thought that that scene was really cute and and fun and kind of in the way that like everyone's trying to make everyone else feel comfortable and everyone's like a little nervous about it, not quite sure what to do but he kind of comes in, he is like, it's all right guys here, here we go, we're going to, you know, we're gonna have this experience as kind of a first time for all of us to do this exact configuration. Yeah. And I enjoyed that in that particular scene. I kept worrying 'cause I'm watching a sex comedy and I'm like, something's gonna go horribly wrong here. Right? Like what's gonna be the, the terrible thing that happens and it's like, oh no, this was actually just really cute and kind of seeing that relationship then you know, that then, then Princeton gets upset about that.

4 (36m 58s):

But I just thought that was a cool example of how you can also be exploring other new things that's not just oh a threesome for the first time, a foursome for the first time, but it's kind of like, oh we're also doing this other thing that's new to us.

2 (37m 11s):

Yeah, thank you. I Think that was something that I really cared about was it, it started from just like, huh they haven't had a hookup that hasn't had a weird quirk about it in a while of the day. So I was like, I just wanted to do to go a little too

4 (37m 25s):

Smoothly for

2 (37m 26s):

Kind of, And I was like, you know what? They deserve a smooth night. Like I don't want the drama of the episode to be theirs. And I'd loved working with Jared on episode five and just kind of thought that would be a cool dynamic to explore as like, oh when you have an inter abled threesome, what does that look like? And Jared deserves a lot of credit 'cause he definitely gave me input on like, well If you show he's now very happily married. But at the time when he was single being like, okay well If you showed up to a hookup with a hearing guy, what would that be like? And he was like, oh, you know, we'd text or we'd write stuff down And I was like, oh the writing stuff down. I feel like I was like, I could work with that. That feels funny. And Jared is an a SL teacher by day and also when he is not acting and taught me how to speak it or sign a SL so clearly didn't teach me how not to be a dummy on podcast.

2 (38m 10s):

So like yeah he definitely was influential in how that storyline evolved and yeah, I love working with him and he's a good friend and it's just cool that, like I've said before, like I can communicate in that language like roughly because of him Right Circle.

4 (38m 26s):

That's awesome. Yeah. Nice. No that's, that's really cool. I, I have a friend who she's always very passionate anytime she sees good accurate portrayals of deaf characters on tv, especially when they're actually played by deaf actors. Yeah. Which is true in this case as well. And so I, I was thinking of her, I'm like I need to show her this episode and see, see what she thinks 'cause I'm sure she'll be excited about

2 (38m 47s):

That. It was a wonderful experience the whole episode because we also had a deaf director Jules Damron, who like really just brought a very like I Think in a lot of ways he was a great choice for the episode because he like identifies I Think more with drama and so like was willing to explore that emotional layer of this particular storyline. And then we also had a whole a SL interpreting crew because we had a few deaf people on set and multiple hearing casting crew came up to me after and like I'd never experienced anything like that because like you would have like an interpreter like sort of like a body manager almost for like the deaf individuals but then you also people kind of around the room 'cause a set is a big place and so you need to communicate messages all over so it kind of like almost as like hot potato, the message is getting like passed around the room so everyone can be clued.

2 (39m 28s):

And I Think that was like very unique for most people who are arriving there and I Think gave us an appreciation of like what it takes to create an inclusive set and you know, we're also a low budget indie so it made me feel a little indignant of like if I can do it you big productions can step up.

4 (39m 45s):

Right, sure.

0 (39m 46s):

That

4 (39m 46s):

Goes yeah, that's a great point.

0 (39m 48s):

That's fair. I wanna zoom out a little bit 'cause I'm curious if when you were setting out to first write this show, are there any tropes in queer media or tropes in non-monogamy representation that you were hoping to avoid? I know you mentioned the whole like everything's all serious all the time, you know, that seems like that's one of them, but any others?

2 (40m 10s):

Yeah, I Think I didn't wanna dangle a breakup ever. I wanted the main couple to be rock solid and that like they have their lessons to be learned all the time but that the drama does not come from breaking up the, or not the drama comes from other people 'cause other people bring drama and additionally just that I didn't want it to ever be like they were cheating on one another. Like that just wasn't interesting to me. I feel like you see that all the time and like I don't think polyamory cheating go hand in hand. Like it obviously happens of course. But I Think their relationships were just like you have missteps that are more about misunderstandings and ingrained beliefs, then I'm going to go have sex with someone without my partner knowing and try to hide it.

2 (40m 51s):

I Think there's just a lot more to it than that.

5 (40m 54s):

Do you feel like non-monogamous and gay representation has gotten better in media over the years? We did actually tour in 2018 where we had a ton of like non-monogamous media in our episode that we did live for our tour. And so we, you know, put a ton of different non-monogamous media in that episode at the time. Yeah. And I Think it was a lot better than it has been than we did, you know, in an episode previously a few years before that. And I, I just wonder like do you see anything out there that is getting even better and where do you want it to go from here too? Yeah,

2 (41m 32s):

I Think it's talked about a a lot more, which is great and like, you know we've done a lot of queer film festivals and like even a few heterosexual one And I know we're groundbreaking through it and I Think that you see it all the time, which is great. I still feel the boundary I want to break more is that it's still used as a tool for drama And I would like to see it used as a tool for comedy a little more and or just incidental, you know, that like a character happens to be polyamorous and that's like not a focus of the storyline, just like how people like rooted for, I Think that's when you have true acceptance of like a character's gay or a character's disabled and like the storyline isn't all about that. It's just like that is but a facet of their character. I Think that just makes for more interesting media to me.

2 (42m 15s):

Yeah,

4 (42m 15s):

I love that. I feel like that's always the thing I keep waiting for is when we can have those portrayals where yeah that's not the focus of their character. That just happens to be a trait of theirs and it's more about these other aspects. So that's, that's great and maybe this show will get there at some point. Maybe they'll become comfortable enough that

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4 (44m 5s):

That the drama becomes all these other things.

2 (44m 8s):

I know I, yeah, I go back and forth on that like of like what does the audience want to see from this? Because I had an episode planned that I didn't go forward with where I was gonna have Princeton presenting at a philosophy conference and it just wasn't hitting. Like I was looking at the outline and something wasn't right And I was like, I Think the people are showing up to see Princeton fucker get fucked. And there's obviously more around it than just that. But yeah, I Think for the show I'm making like I want to show, I'm glad I've like shown characters workplaces and shown their lives outside and like their connections outside, just their sexual connections. But I still have reservations sometimes about like, okay, how far a field from the central premise of like exploring non-monogamy, can I go before people are like next channel.

2 (44m 50s):

And I Think that's just something you figure out as time goes on.

0 (44m 53s):

Well I guess that's always the challenge, right? With any kind of representation is that, well maybe not any kind of representation, but I guess specifically about non-monogamous representation that we want to see ourselves reflected back to ourselves and we are whole human beings, right? And so the moment that like a representation doesn't reflect ourselves back perfectly, people get upset, you know? And so there is that constant balancing of like wanting to flush out these characters and make them feel real while also wanting to stay focused as a storyteller.

2 (45m 22s):

Yeah. 'cause I've also, yeah, there's just it, it's funny reflecting on like what I haven't put into the show and like even Cam's like doing drag, like I was like, oh at one point maybe he should try to get on like a famous drag series. And then that felt the same way of like, I don't know if people are showing up to see that. I Think more so than anything, it's not even about whether there's polyamory in it or not, but I Think a good storyline in a comedy has to service more than one main character. And I Think that was what I was running into more than anything was like, oh, if just Cam is featured in like a drag storyline or just Princeton's featured in a philosophy storyline, it's just not doing enough work for the ensemble. 'cause we have like six main characters, the main five in Cat at this point and Jasper's like the seventh relay.

2 (46m 2s):

So yeah, you just kind of have to have storylines that feature two to three people or it's like not a great use of screen time.

4 (46m 8s):

Right. Yeah. Like you have to find ways for their lives to overlap a little bit more. Like I noticed you had some scenes with the drag stuff, but where like another character would be the photographer. Yeah. And then another would show up to, you know, help schedule something or, you know, you kind of have to like get 'em all involved in the scene

2 (46m 24s):

Somehow. And that's why though polyamory makes writing easy sometimes because I'm like, anyone can hook up with anyone, we can have five people in the same relationship. Great. Game up.

4 (46m 33s):

That's a good point. Yeah, yeah. Real quick, before this next section, did you know that you can get ad free early releases of this show as well as access to monthly video processing groups and exclusive private channels on our Discord server all by becoming a subscriber at a sliding scale? Pay what you can price. If you go to Multiamory dot com slash join, you can read more, get access to that. We would love to have you as part of our community. In the meantime, take a moment to check out the sponsors on this episode. If any of them seem interesting to you, use the promo codes or the links that we have in our episode description because that also goes a long way to supporting this show.

4 (47m 13s):

I, I

5 (47m 15s):

Feel like non-monogamy recently is like really gone on this upward trajectory of like, people know about it now it's in the New York Times and it's becoming much more quote unquote mainstream. Clearly it's still not 100%. Of course

0 (47m 30s):

I'm, I'm always gonna be the one waving the flag of disagreeing with that and, and the reason for that. This yes, we're gonna, we're gonna fight about this right now. No,

5 (47m 38s):

It just, it was, you know, I, I talked on this panel last night and they, they were talking a lot about the fact that like non-monogamy is having a big moment right now and why is that? And that became a, a topic of conversation. So I guess I just because of that I do wonder is, is that maybe why people are more excited and willing to watch a show like this or have non-monogamy represented in media at all?

2 (48m 3s):

Yeah, I Think it's having, its come up moment, but it's not yet passe. So I Think that's what I see is like, it's still a little like forbidden and unfamiliar and that's what like excites some people about watching it. And maybe a few years from now it'll be too familiar and people won't care anymore. But I Think like we are maybe hitting it at the right moment where people aren't closed off to it, but also don't know enough about it. So we're maybe hitting a sweet spot of like, Ooh, that I've heard of that. Let me look at that and see what that's like.

4 (48m 28s):

Yeah. I do feel like we're in a time where, because the words are getting thrown around a lot more and there have been a few of these articles or things written that have gotten a lot of attention that it's like we have this double-edged sword of more awareness, but also a lot more misunderstanding. Mm.

2 (48m 48s):

Yeah.

4 (48m 49s):

Because if you only exposure is, I read this one article from this one point of view. Okay, now I Think it all looks like this. Yeah. Or I Think it all looks this other way. So yeah, I, I feel like it's almost, we're in a time where we have even more need to show a variety of stories and a variety of ways this can look, so that we don't get caught in this monolithic idea of, ah, well that always means this thing. And that then, you know, people either make their judgments or get into it thinking it's all that when it's not, you know, those misunderstandings that can come up.

2 (49m 22s):

And I personally, I Think I spoke to you all about this last time, like I only feel light pressure about positive portrayals of non-monogamy because I've never been attracted to media where like the main characters are all crap buckets. So that was never what I was gonna write regardless. But I also don't think it's interesting if they don't disagree on anything and like everything works out all the time. So I feel pretty comfortable saying like, Hey, this is a very much a net positive relationship. It's why they're together, they love and care for one another, but that doesn't mean they're not gonna like, commit errors here and there that end up in situational comedy. But I don't know how you three feel about yourselves as ambassadors of the community.

0 (49m 59s):

Oh, what a questions ambassador.

5 (49m 60s):

We definitely fuck up all the time.

0 (50m 2s):

So,

5 (50m 4s):

I mean, at least I do. Maybe not them, but yeah. Got it.

0 (50m 7s):

Well, to be, to be totally honest, like, to be totally frank, okay, these days, when These days luck, when I am presented with an article an op-ed, you know, someone's like, oh, did you see this episode of such and such show? Like, there was a triad in that episode. What? Whatever, or like the reality shows or whatever. Like, I, I tend to avoid them. Now, part of that is just me personally because it's like, I literally spend my day seeped in this topic and sometimes I'm like, can I just think about something different for two seconds? But, but some of it is that weird. Like I, I Think that I would throw myself under the bus in saying that I Think I have weird standards for representation where I Think that I am trying to seek out this like very, very narrow window of like what's messy enough, but not so messy that it's making all of us look bad.

0 (50m 53s):

And it's probably an impossible target to hit, to be quite honest. But like, if I try to think about what's my ideal, you know, what's the show about non-monogamy or the representation of non-monogamy that I'd be super excited to consume? And I suppose like over the past few years, mostly it has come down to those pretty real and pretty raw representations, you know, where people aren't afraid to talk about kind of the awkward parts. But it's also not somebody's, I, I guess just kinda like rant about how it didn't work for them. I don't know. See, I, I feel like the more that I spin this, the more that I can split hairs on like what to me feels like good representation or not. But I'm curious to hear about from you, my fellow ambassadors, what, what you think.

0 (51m 36s):

Gosh,

2 (51m 37s):

I'll cut in with something tangential of, I have a friend who wrote episode 10, Jose Una, who's, he does video essays in addition to being a writer. And he's most recent one was called In Defensive Queer Misery. And essentially the thesis was darker, heavier queer pieces speak to him more because he finds them more life affirming. He finds like the more joyous positive things feel like they're putting on a performance that doesn't quite resonate with him. Mm. And we like definitely have had words about that topic before. And even watching it, he like calls me out in the video as like, liking love Victor. And he is like bad. And I like texted me like my

0 (52m 12s):

Feelings were

2 (52m 12s):

Hurt. And I Think what was really striking to me was then going through the comment section, which you're never supposed to do, but I was seeing how people kind of really resonated with his point of view of like, I feel not alone when I watch pieces with like heavy drama and despair and like what a lot of people were saying was like, I like pieces where like there's despair but it ends in a good place ultimately. Like, so that was something I wasn't appreciating enough is that like you can have heavy pieces that still have a happy ending or that have the character find some solace and peace. So that's just, I just agree with EDR about like a messier stuff doesn't have to mean mess all the time. It can be, starts a mess, ends cleaner.

0 (52m 49s):

I, I, I Think, yeah, the more that I Think about it, it's, I Think I am often craving a sense of normalcy around it. And, and that's, that's a projection of what I crave in my own life, right? Is like what I crave in my own life is to drop the word non-monogamy or polyamory and to not have someone bat an eye, right? And so I Think that sometimes I, my wish fulfillment is wanting to see that reflected in a piece of media where this feels very normal even when it's messy, even when it's great. And the more I describe it, the more boring it sounds. So, no, I'll toss the ball back to you James.

2 (53m 20s):

Yeah,

4 (53m 21s):

No, I mean we have always said for a long time that that

2 (53m 24s):

A show about

4 (53m 25s):

Like a good highly functioning relationship, whether it's non-monogamous or monogamous, would just be bored. And that's, that's why that's not what you see on tv, right? We don't see really good healthy monogamous relationships either. 'cause those aren't that interesting. Unless your story is about something else, which I Think that's like you mentioned Frank, that's something I really wanna see is the non-monogamous polyamorous character where their drama's about other stuff. Mm. That's not just about that. And I Think that, you know, it's, it's the same thing like when we first started having gay characters on TV at first their whole purpose is being a joke. And then eventually their whole purpose is being the gay character who's dealing with all the gay stuff.

4 (54m 7s):

Even though now they're not just a joke, they're more of our protagonist. And then it's, I feel like only somewhat recently and even then just barely do we have gay characters who their stories about something else. Yeah. Right. That that's not the whole purpose of their character. That's not their whole arc is about either coming out about realizing they're gay, about getting acceptance for it. And I Think we've got some of those now, but honestly I'm having trouble calling some to mind. I Think we're just barely getting there and we're not even close to that yet with non-monogamy, I don't think. Well

2 (54m 38s):

What I like take up the mantle with nowadays is how like I have this debate with friends because some are like, oh we don't need as many queer focused shows because queer characters are so seamlessly integrated into everything now. And I just have a little bit of an issue with that still. I feel like there is nothing wrong with like queer led, queer focused series to exist and yet they've been, you know, taken off the air one after another. I have my list I go through of like, workaholics, please like me, everything's gonna be okay. Eastsiders work in progress like shit's creek that queers folk, they just all kind of are smile, they're collapsing on themselves. And that's really hard for me to watch.

2 (55m 18s):

And yet, you know, hey, I love how elite, for instance, on Netflix is one of their most popular shows and has gotten queerer and queerer as time has gone on. And that's beautiful to witness And man, the characters are hot on that. If you are of any sexuality, watch that show they

4 (55m 32s):

Beautiful

5 (55m 33s):

People. What is it? Elite? Elite,

2 (55m 34s):

Elite. Yeah. Okay. It's basically like how to get away with murder, but teens at a prep school and you know, they're all played by adults of course. And yeah. But all that's to say, yeah, so I don't, we're obviously not there with polyamory where I'm like, there's no poly shows anymore 'cause they're so effortlessly every series, but like, just a warning of like what acceptance could look like.

5 (55m 54s):

Yeah. What about you

0 (55m 55s):

Emily? What's your desired representation, your desired non-monogamous media?

5 (55m 59s):

Oh my God. I do think that kind of a way point for a lot of people, especially when they're discovering non-monogamy is, you know, I'm opening up a relationship with a partner and going through sort of the trials and tribulations of that. But yes, ultimately having it be hopeful at the end or hopeful maybe if it's a film or something that it, that it works out for them. And maybe I'm thinking about this just because I'm currently in the midst of like opening up a sort of semi monogamous relationship with a partner and walking back into non-monogamy myself after a very long period of time of not doing it. So I Think yeah, having even just a representation like that because I Think so many people start there that that would be really nice for people to be able to see and then see it work to be like, okay, I can grab onto that And I can, you know, figure out for myself that perhaps everything's gonna be okay.

5 (56m 57s):

It's

2 (56m 57s):

Beautiful. I love that.

5 (56m 58s):

So you want some hope is what I'm hearing. Yes, yes. I, yes, I'm, yes, I do want some hope. Amazing. So I guess as we kind of wrap up here, what are you hoping that your viewers are gonna take away from watching OPEN TO IT?

2 (57m 14s):

That I'm beautiful and it's not just bravado, but also I Think I want everyone, honestly to watch and have security in their own relationships. Like if they're monogamous and wanna stay that way to feel like, great, those silly queers on screen, I'm doing it right. But if they're also inspired by like, Hey, that might be fun. I'm gonna talk

5 (57m 35s):

To my partner and

2 (57m 36s):

Figure that out, that that's a wonderful experience too. My guiding light has always been like, whatever works for you and makes you happy, that's what I want for you. I, but you know, obviously if people are hiding being polyamorous from themselves, I don't want that. But yeah, that's all just like for people to see other people making a variety of choices on screen as they do an OPEN TO IT and just say like, Hey, any of these choices could be valid with the right person at the right time and game on

5 (58m 4s):

Hell. Yeah.

4 (58m 5s):

I Think something I'd I'd add to that of something that I would like more of us to be able to take away from the, the two main couples on your show is that in both cases the couples are very good at hearing no from their partner. And, and then very quickly stopping and listening instead of kind of just pushing for like, oh, but I want this, but I want this, that, that sense of like, oh, you're, you're not into this. Okay, let's do a different kind of hangout then if that's not what you're feeling that they really like, they're very quickly responsive to that in a way that I Think is really great and is something that I feel like we really try to cultivate for people in their relationships. Like you're really listening and able to kind of adapt quickly to when you're noticing that your partner or the person that you're with that their vibe is changing or that they're kind of saying like, Hey, I'm not sure I want to do this, of like being really responsive to that.

4 (58m 59s):

And I do think that's a really cool thing, those characters model, but without having it be like, oh I'm so worried all the time because it's still a comedy, right? So it's, it's light in the way that it's handled, but that they do respond very quickly.

2 (59m 10s):

If I'm thinking of this correctly, I don't think we ever use the word boundaries on the show, but like the show is

4 (59m 16s):

Very

2 (59m 16s):

Much love that much all about boundaries. Like even interesting, it's like even for instance, like in the pool party episode, Elsa sort of becomes Princeton's like liaison coordinating all his hookups and Reggie comes in and is kind of like, you left me in the car. What's Goldie fawn? And they have to have that discussion about like, you can't just kind of like ditch me and like do whatever he asks of you. Like we have a relationship that needs centering. And yeah, I Think like if this were a drama, the show would be called Boundaries. 'cause I Think it all about that of like what's comfortable with your partner, with your friends, and like expressing that. And to Jason's point absolutely hearing a no and being like, I need to listen more closely, not I need to push past this.

4 (59m 55s):

Yeah. Yeah. I Think if people could just take that away, we, we've already made a lot of progress right there. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Awesome. So as we close here, could you let us know where can people find the show? I know I mentioned at the at the beginning, but where can people find it and also what can they expect in terms of it ending up on out TV in different countries around the world? What's, what's the plan there? Yeah, so we're going

2 (1h 0m 17s):

Worldwide Baby. So you can always find the show at OPEN TO IT series.com. Right now, as I speak, season episodes one through seven, season one and the Pride Special are all available. The Pride special is a more timely episode about a drag queen story hour getting interrupted by protesters. So don't expect it to be sexy, but expect it to be meaningful and hilarious. And then we have season two coming out, so it'll premiere on out TV in Europe and Latin America on September one, and then it will be on out TV Canada, US, and let's see other English speaking countries, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, UK, and Ireland. That should be January 2nd. And then we're also discussing when it's gonna come to Asia.

2 (1h 0m 57s):

But yes, always check OPEN TO IT series.com and it will almost certainly be available in all territories. It's just a question of when.

4 (1h 1m 3s):

Awesome. Well thank you so much for joining us again today, Frank.

2 (1h 1m 7s):

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be OPEN TO IT. I hate myself for that. I'm sorry.

4 (1h 1m 16s):

Alright, thank you. And everyone at home, we would love to hear from you with our question of the week, which we're posting on our Instagram at Multiamory podcast, is how would you like to see non-monogamy represented in TV and film? In other words, how perfect do you want it to look? How messy do you want it to look? How dramatic, how comedic. We would love to hear from you and you can respond to that anonymously. And then we'll share some of the answers that we think are interesting. And If you wanna discuss this episode in general further, the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is the episode discussion channel in our Discord server. Or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to Multiamory dot com slash join.

4 (1h 2m 1s):

In addition, you can share publicly on Instagram at Multiamory podcast. Multiamory is created and produced by Emily Matlack, Deur Winston, and me Jase Lindgren. Our production assistants are Rachel Sheer and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave ep. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on Multiamory dot com.